gstopngo
Rookie Author
Atlanta
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 5:01:02 AM
I have a great idea. LEt switch grass grow,mow and convert to cellulosic ethanol, and use as multi-part plan: CEllulosic ethanol, algae/bio-deisel, electric, conservation
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gass12
Champion Author
Omaha
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:52:47 AM
Is this better and cheaper than the Corn.
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danny999
Champion Author
Florida
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:49:23 AM
THE EPA IS ENFORCING BETTER GAS EFFICIENCY IN VEHICLES,AND ENFORCING ETHANOL WHICH DECREASES OUR GAS MILAGE.TALK ABOUT GOVERNMENT BOON DOGGLES......
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twobroke61
Champion Author
Michigan
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:40:05 AM
why can't the gov. get it through there heads we do not want this ethanol it is not good for the engine plus the mpg sucks so move on to something else and quit forcing this crap down our tanks already
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gordonfan05
Champion Author
Georgia
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:28:55 AM
Ethanol hurts fuel mileage and takes more energy to produce than it saves as fuel. How is that helping the enviroment?
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camel1
Champion Author
Minnesota
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:27:45 AM
Cellulosic better than corn ethanol. But still hurts mileage
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AuburnTim
Champion Author
Indiana
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:19:32 AM
Why can't anyone get it threw their thick heads Ethanol is not the answer
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NotTom
Champion Author
New Hampshire
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 3:12:50 AM
However ethanol is a better alternative than MBTE.
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findcheap
Champion Author
Los Angeles
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:53:37 AM
Ethanol is horrible
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MDTDriver
Champion Author
California
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:52:55 AM
As it has been said for years Ethanol is not the best way to go, and that is for sure.
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lpj
Champion Author
Macon
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:52:29 AM
just don't mix with gasoline !!
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granitestater
Champion Author
New Hampshire
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:46:19 AM
Brazil produces ethanol from cane juice. If they can get it from the stalks as well--economically. They can be the new Persian Gulf. What with the new oil finds off the coast.
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la90042
Champion Author
Los Angeles
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:44:58 AM
we can learn something from this......
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toyota1999
Champion Author
Louisville
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:44:18 AM
Ethanol hurts the engines of cars and is less efficient.
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dano50
Champion Author
Riverside
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:36:54 AM
Maybe we can learn something here.
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Mark929
Champion Author
Oakland
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:36:03 AM
I don't like ethanol.
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jimgraham
Champion Author
Akron
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:35:20 AM
After the drop in oil prices and the failure of ethanol producers, big oil bought ethanol plants for pennies on the dollar. Now we see the results of their chicanery. Less competition in the ethanol market - higher prices for gas.
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teafortwo
Champion Author
Washington
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:20:44 AM
Ethanol, from current waste and by-products could be a good supplemental fuel for a variety of applications .........BUT, this is not the way to go for automobiles .........
In the meantime, CONSERVE and seek alternatives .........
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vulcan96
Champion Author
Ohio
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:15:49 AM
since the greedy refiners jumped the price of gas by 27 cents per gallon today they are just shooting themselves in the foot as people are getting mad enough to start attacking the refineries -- thousands of unemployed people are getting desperate enough to resort to violence as we have already seen in many other countries. sad times for this once great country !
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TIGERPAW46
Champion Author
Florida
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:09:16 AM
Just to ensure no one misunderstands the article I summarised with direct quotes my message below is not the entire article you can locate it if you want to read t it in it's entirety
Feb 14, 2009
CHICAGO (AFP) — The use of crop-based biofuels could speed up rather than slow down global warming by fueling the destruction of rainforests, scientists warned Saturday.
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Kamakani
Champion Author
Hawaii
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 2:01:33 AM
Algae power
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kellerman
Champion Author
Maine
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:55:24 AM
not sold on ethanols value as a fuel
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vibdata
Champion Author
Massachusetts
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:55:08 AM
Well, time to plan those forests and time for lots of forest management policies to go into place to have enough cellulose to make all the ethanol.
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TIGERPAW46
Champion Author
Florida
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:50:44 AM
Jay4,
I'm glad that you think your Facts from Supporters of Ethanol are the ONLY TRUTH, While you absolutely deny any accuracy of any FACTS published by anyone who disagrees with those supporters solely basing your argument on their alleged Bias.
Don't you think those most likely to financially benefit from Ethanol production are just as likely to only give credit to studies supporting their position as those opposed are likely to credit those studies which support their position?
I am one who has read many studies which come from reputable sources and posted some of those because I feel everyone should see both sides of the argument. So yes we need to see your data including it's source and the accuracy of the studies and re-produceability using scientific methods. But likewise that doesn't make every study that disagrees with you a MYTH.
Give some credit that some of the researchers on both sides really do care and are trying to give a fair evaluation of the pro's & Cons. of Ethanol. As most of us know Generally everything in life has good and bad effects. Even Antibiotics for Infections.
Here's one for example. You may disagree with the study but I don't believe you can blow it off as a myth.
Feb 14, 2009
CHICAGO (AFP) — The use of crop-based biofuels could speed up rather than slow down global warming by fueling the destruction of rainforests, scientists warned Saturday... They could also be responsible for pumping far more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than they could possibly save as a replacement for fossil fuels, according to a study released Saturday... "If we run our cars on biofuels produced in the tropics, chances will be good that we are effectively burning rainforests in our gas tanks," warned Holly Gibbs, of Stanford's Woods Institute for the Environment... Gibbs studied satellite photos of the tropics from 1980 to 2000 and found that half of new cropland came from intact rainforests and another 30 percent from disturbed forests...
For high-yield crops like sugar cane it would take 40 to 120 years to pay back this carbon debt.
For lower yield crops like corn or soybeans it would take 300 to 1,500 years, she told reporters at a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
"biofuels have caused alarm because of how quickly production has been growing: Global ethanol production increased by four times and biodiesel by 10 times between 2000 and 2007," Gibbs said.
Simply growing the biofuel crops in the United States or other non-tropical countries will not solve the problem, said Michael Coe of the Woods Hole Research Center... "Emissions from deforestation in Brazil -- even under our best scenarios -- still swamp any decrease in greenhouse gasses in the United States," Coe told reporters...
"There are tradeoffs in all these decisions that need to be made on a case-by-case basis," she said. "We need to keep in mind that more cropland will be needed to meet the global demands for food, feed and fuel, so the best options will likely vary by circumstance."
"We can't find a way that it makes greenhouse gas sense to grow ethanol in the United States."
One of many but can't post all at once. However, if you want to take an honest look for them it's not that hard. Yes I have read other univ. contradicting studies on both sides also. I Just think Administration is pushing one sided too fast without finding the best methods for energy sources.
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theduster1
Champion Author
Texas
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:47:26 AM
god us with all the stuff they want to throw at us.
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RhodeThode
Champion Author
Nebraska
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:47:16 AM
Get away from corn based!
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Ltdc
Champion Author
Long Island
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:42:07 AM
These boys certainly have a dog in the fight.
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MPGKing
All-Star Author
New Jersey
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:38:58 AM
its less efficient
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Mooseman1
Champion Author
Manitoba
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:31:59 AM
Will our engine be able to handle more ethanol?
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DrCashFlow
Champion Author
Massachusetts
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:30:58 AM
fuel's promise of what? higher engine costs?
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FASTR1
Champion Author
Michigan
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:30:39 AM
Hmmmm, how many billions of dollars will go into research of cellulosic ethanol before the realize it won't work?
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Bruno44
Champion Author
Texas
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:26:09 AM
Ethanol is a big mistake.
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CPR54
Champion Author
Austin
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:10:27 AM
YEA WELL THEY NEED TO STOP MAKING IT CHRIS
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JoeKR
Champion Author
New Jersey
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:07:55 AM
What is the price per barrel of celluloxic ethanol compared to crude oil?
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C4U
Champion Author
Salt Lake City
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:03:28 AM
Conservation is the best thing we can do. We still need to implement a fast track to alternative fuels and energy to be come energy independent from foreign support, big oil companies and local utilities monopoly.
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coke_kid
Champion Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 1:00:27 AM
Prices fell below $60 Tuesday until a private research group — The Conference Board — reported that consumer confidence in May soared to the highest level since last September amid tentative signs that the economy was improving.
AND THEY KNOW THIS CAUSE????
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rwm1
Champion Author
Iowa
Posts:1,912
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:59:11 AM
We have an ethanol plant in Emmettsburg, Iowa doing very well with POET. Our Green Plains Renewable Energy plant in Shenandoah has already laid out the framework for an algae farm to open later this year. Its a far far cheaper and better alternative to OPEC.
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Classic1903
Sophomore Author
Ventura
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:50:15 AM
It's a bad deal. It takes more energy to produce it than it provides. The only winners with ethanol are the corn growers/farm lobby.
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007HS
Champion Author
California
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:46:52 AM
jay4, I don't care where an atom of carbon comes from, when it is OXIDIZED ii is still CO2. What is the energy to produce vs energy from oxidizing for octane? The more carbon atoms in the fuel the more energy is available. Ever wonder why Diesel powered vehicles get more MPH? MO' CARBON to oxidize! Grammatical correction:"So here ARE the facts:".
[Edited by: 007HS at 5/27/2009 1:48:10 AM EST]
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PetroScopper
Champion Author
Houston
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:40:24 AM
Ethanol is not the answer to our problems in the United States... unless they can change from the corn-based model to the sugar-based model like Brazil has mastered and they have been able to do away with big oil.
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RLH68
Champion Author
Orlando
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:37:27 AM
jay4, you are way off base! You're basing your "facts" on government figures, not the best source for accurate information. Why is the government subsidizing the production of ethanol if it's cheaper than gasoline? I suspect you're a government employee, nothing else makes sense.
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greenfog
Champion Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:33:47 AM
bravo jay4, Glad see some facts out there for a change.
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myromeo
Champion Author
Missouri
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:31:30 AM
unless you have an auto produced to run on ethanol you are in for mechanical trouble.
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jay4
Champion Author
Colorado Springs
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:18:46 AM
Without exception, everytime ethanol is mentioned on this site, Big Oil's Anti-Ethanol Myths get regurgitated. SO here's the facts:
Killing Myths on Ethanol
The growth of the ethanol industry means that ethanol will be entering the fuel supply in new areas of the United States. In California alone, ethanol has grown from being virtually absent just a few years ago to a demand of nearly 1 billion gallons used in 2007.
In spite of the outstanding track record of ethanol for our economy, our environment and our energy supply, some myths still exist—and those who oppose the growth of renewable fuels many times resurrect these myths in an attempt to discredit the ethanol industry.
For more than two decades, NCGA has been promoting the development of the ethanol industry. Here are the facts that kill the myths:
Myth: Ethanol raises the cost of gasoline.
FACT: While many predicted that the switch from MTBE to ethanol would increase the price at the pump, the fact is that there has been no negative impact on gasoline supplies or the cost per gallon of gasoline. Ethanol is less expensive than other oxygenates and octane enhancers. In fact, ethanol is also less expensive that ordinary gasoline.
The net effect of blending ethanol with gasoline is actually a product that costs less—and that has been proven as oil prices have escalated of late. A May 2005 report by the Consumer Federation of America notes that drivers everywhere should be saving as much as eight cents per gallon if petroleum marketers would simply blend ethanol into more gasoline. (Read Study)
Myth: Ethanol actually adds to air pollution.
FACT: Because ethanol is inherently cleaner than gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Ethanol reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 25 percent—and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and helps reduce levels of greenhouse gases.
According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.
Myth: Ethanol will harm car and truck engines.
FACT:Every major automobile manufacturer approves the use of ethanol blends up to 10 percent (E-10 Unleaded) under warranty. In fact, many auto manufacturers go so far as to recommend the use of clean, renewable fuels such as E-10 Unleaded. Cars built since the 1970s are fully compatible with E-10 Unleaded.
In addition, ethanol in gasoline:
Adds oxygen to the fuel, thereby raising the air/fuel ratio for more complete combustion;
Eliminates the need and expense of adding a gas line antifreeze, since the ethanol in the gasoline absorbs more water than a small bottle of isopropyl;
Prevents burning of engine valves because ethanol burns cooler than gasoline;
Prevents build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, thus keeping the fuel system cleaner.
Myth: Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it contributes.
FACT: In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
Myth: Ethanol contributes to global warming.
FACT: Because the energy balance of ethanol production is positive (1.67 to 1), greenhouse gas benefits are also positive. The Argonne National Laboratory has demonstrated that using ethanol produces 32 percent fewer emissions of greenhouse gases than gasoline for the same distance traveled.
Ethanol also reduces emissions of other harmful pollutants such as carbon monoxide—and it dilutes and displaces components of gasoline that produce toxic emissions.
According to a recent study by Smog Reyes: “Ethanol currently is the only compound that can be blended with gasoline to help reduce global warming…”
Myth: Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.
FACT: Wet mill ethanol production facilities are also know as corn refineries—and they also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil—all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption.
The corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed to livestock. Ethanol production also results in the production of distillers grains and gluten feed—both of which are fed to livestock as well, helping produce high quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad.
There is no shortage of corn. In 2007, U.S. farmers produced a record 13.1 billion bushel corn harvest—and some 2.3 billion bushels (about 13 percent) were used in ethanol production. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing average corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.
Myth: Ethanol does not benefit farmers.
FACT: The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near an ethanol plant tend to be five to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and helps add vitality to rural economies. And the additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business—helping ensure adequate food suppliers in the future.
Ethanol production also creates jobs—many of them in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A January 2005 study by LECG found that the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil.
Those kinds of numbers help farmers—and all Americans.
http://www.ncga.com/node/71
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jadeusa
Champion Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:18:12 AM
I agree with those who say that food based ethanol is not the answer.
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rd2000
Champion Author
Florida
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:10:27 AM
sorry but E85 is not the answer and we shood be using the corn to feed people
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ChiKid
Champion Author
Denver
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:06:32 AM
Its just an alternative. One of many. Some will survive other will fall by the wayside. I do not think ethanol from food will survive, but lets just wait an see what does.
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Ticoman54
Champion Author
Miami
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Message Posted: May 27, 2009 12:04:02 AM
I'm not convinced corn-based ethanol is the answer.
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Bussman
Champion Author
Dallas
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Message Posted: May 26, 2009 11:59:48 PM
I agree with bobdec.
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bobdec
Champion Author
Florida
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Message Posted: May 26, 2009 11:54:27 PM
Stop with these ethanol products it is bad for cars and it wast food as well as one of the most valuable resources on earth that is dwindling
Case for Biofuels weakens further http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11036
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